The Ethically Immoral Podcast
The Ethically Immoral Podcast is a program dedicated to long-form conversations with poets, spoken word artists, authors, and creatives who use language as a tool for truth-telling, healing, and resistance. Hosted by Mike Payne, the show travels beyond the typical interview to explore the personal histories, artistic philosophies, and cultural contexts that shape the voice of the Creatives we welcome.
It’s not just about poetry or performance — it’s about the people behind the pen. We talk about identity, healing, joy, frustration, and the journey of becoming. Some moments are deep, others are funny, but all of them are authentic. If you’re someone who values storytelling, vulnerability, and good conversation, this space was created and cultivated for you.
The Ethically Immoral Podcast
Volume Six: Chapter Eleven - Our Conversation With Gary Barwin
In Volume Six: Chapter Eleven of The Program, we welcome a Hamilton, Ontario–based educator, writer, poet, essayist, composer, and musician Gary Barwin. With a BFA and BA from York University and a PhD in Music Composition from SUNY Buffalo, Barwin has built a career that refuses to stay in one lane. He’s the author of more than thirty books and chapbooks—including Yiddish for Pirates, winner of the 2017 Stephen Leacock Medal for Humour and the Canadian Jewish Literary Award for Fiction, and shortlisted for both the Scotiabank Giller Prize and the Governor General’s Award. His newest collaboration, Muttertongue—co-authored with Toronto Poet Laureate Lillian Allen and friend of the podcast Gregory Betts—is a bold fusion of both poetry and sound.
In our conversation, Gary and I trace the through-lines of a life shaped by movement, music, and story. We talk about his family’s journey—from Lithuania to South Africa, through Northern Ireland, and finally to Canada—and how those histories reflects through his creative work. We discuss his grandfather’s influence, the man who first took him seriously as a writer, and the way family narratives—of exile, resilience, and humor—continue to surface in his art.
We also explore Hamilton’s quiet but powerful role in his creative life, how writing and music speak the same emotional language, and why he believes creativity isn’t something that fades—it deepens. Gary discusses the leap from poetry to prose when writing Yiddish for Pirates, what that process taught him about discipline and discovery, and what it felt like to have that debut novel embraced so widely after decades of writing poetry and composing music.
Finally, we dig into Muttertongue—how the collaboration with Allen and Betts came together, what it means to work at the intersection of sound, text, and visual poetry, and how they hope audiences experience the project as both a book and an album.
Contact Gary
Website: garybarwin.com Instagram: @garybarwin
Recorded Spoken Word Performances Featured Include:
King Yaw – Poetry Service
Instagram: @kingyaw_
Terisa Siagatonu – Note To Self
Instagram: @terisasiagatonu Website: terisasiagatonu.com
Gabrielle Smith – Black Bird
Instagram: @bygabriellesmith
Nelle Divine – Dont Fall In Love With A Healer
Instagram: @iamnelledivine
AkeemJamaal Rollins – Suicide Note
Instagram: @keemyjam
